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Mosby

(19,101 posts)
Fri Oct 10, 2025, 01:36 PM Friday

Economists were wrong about tariffs. They need to figure out why.

Inflation would surge. Supply chains would crash. And the economy would be plunged into a deep recession while the stock market tanked. When President Donald Trump imposed huge tariffs on imports in April, the mainstream economic establishment and the big forecasters on Wall Street were virtually united on one point: The tariffs would trigger stagflation, at best, and a deep slump, at worst. It sounded like life would resemble a post-apocalypse Netflix series, with survivors dodging zombies and fighting one another for the last few items at the mall.

Goldman Sachs put the odds of a full-blown recession at 45 percent. Torsten Slok of private equity firm Apollo, one of the most respected economists on Wall Street, went a lot further, predicting that the odds of what he termed a “voluntary trade reset recession” were 90 percent. Nobel Prize winner Paul Krugman argued that “the biggest trade shock in history” meant “a recession seems likely.”

And yet, six months on, events have not unfolded that way. The big thinkers got this one wrong — and if economics is to maintain any credibility, they need to address why that happened.

-snip-

Finally, it is starting to look as if the United States actually was getting a raw deal on trade. The U.S. now imposes an average tariff of 18.6 percent, the highest since 1933, according to Yale’s Budget Lab. And yet prices are rising by only about 3 percent. It turns out the foreign exporters were making enough money from American consumers that they can absorb most of the new tariffs, either in lower profits or through efficiency savings. They are not being paid by American consumers the way that was predicted. The extra $30 billion a month in revenue the tariffs are already generating is not exactly “free money” (after all, the most enduring lesson of this dismal science is that there is no such thing as a lunch you don’t have to pay for). But it’s as close to it as anything we have seen for a long time.

Washington Post

What economists and the legacy media failed to consider was the enormous profit margins that manufacturers make on their products, and the role elasticity of demand has on pricing.

59 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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Economists were wrong about tariffs. They need to figure out why. (Original Post) Mosby Friday OP
Two reasons: 1) Staggered changing tariffs smeared the effect. 2) Massive uncertainty. . . . . . nt Bernardo de La Paz Friday #1
This is a very pro-Trump column. yardwork Friday #2
Looking thru a partisan lens it might be. Mosby Friday #4
I don't see any evidence of hysteria on the part of economists. yardwork Friday #8
This article is poorly written propaganda. Dawson Leery Friday #5
Matthew Lynn is a financial columnist and author. He writes for the Daily Telegraph and the Spectator in London. Celerity Friday #15
This message was self-deleted by its author Skittles Friday #40
JFC Skittles Friday #39
Read on! yardwork Friday #41
*SNORT* Skittles Friday #44
Way too early to celebrate being wrong. Savings KPN Friday #3
It's darker than cheerleading. yardwork Friday #12
Post removed Post removed Friday #14
Who is Lawrence? yardwork Friday #16
O'Donnell. Mosby Friday #19
Lawrence O'Donnell is not an economist. yardwork Friday #20
He has a degree in economics from Harvard. Mosby Friday #22
He has a bachelor's degree in economics. I have one too. Neither one of us is an economist. PeaceWave Friday #24
lol. I have an undergraduate degree in history but I am not a historian. yardwork Friday #26
'Liberation Day' in retrospect: 6 things that surprised investors Mosby Friday #13
The stock market isn't the economy for the average KPN Friday #49
I don't think FAFO sentiment is the same as "celebrating" Skittles Friday #45
With all due respect, this feels like Republican propaganda. By all accounts, tariffs are punishing U.S. farmers. PeaceWave Friday #6
WaPo is running a lot of Trump propaganda these days. yardwork Friday #9
because it is, see post 15 Celerity Friday #18
The rich can ride some of the effects out.................... Lovie777 Friday #7
So foreign manufacturers are lowering their prices? Bmoboy Friday #10
Bullshit edhopper Friday #11
We're still very early in the game. Wednesdays Friday #17
This is BS because he backed off a lot of tariffs, or lowered them drastically. OrlandoDem2 Friday #21
I am pretty sure this story is slanted in more than one way BootinUp Friday #23
This is an opinion piece written by a conservative writer who backed brexit and who gives TSF lots wiggs Friday #25
The US economy was so strong it withstood a huge major grifting operation by Trump. Irish_Dem Friday #27
This is the guy who predicted in a 2007 Bloomberg article that the iPhone would be a flop. Ocelot II Friday #28
the article Celerity Friday #52
Thanks! Ocelot II Friday #53
yw Celerity Friday #54
Supply chains and pricing has not fully adjusted yet. bucolic_frolic Friday #29
Post removed Post removed Friday #30
I didn't alert but this column really is nothing but right wing talking points. yardwork Friday #34
They haven't been fully implemented, and temporarily companies have been lostincalifornia Friday #31
The Gatekeepers have arrived. Kingofalldems Friday #32
Krugman had a post about this today Krazy_Kat Friday #33
It's a tired canard to suggest that "companies are absorbing costs." PeaceWave Friday #37
He makes some good points. Mosby Friday #38
Let's See What Shareholders Say DallasNE Friday #56
This column is what is sometimes referred to as an "absolute pant load". BannonsLiver Friday #35
The comments from WaPo readers concur. yardwork Friday #36
Stagflation DallasNE Friday #42
Why are we allowing right wing bullshit like this to be posted here? I thought it was against the rules. Wiz Imp Friday #43
Same here. Kingofalldems Friday #46
Wrong about WHICH tariffs? DFW Friday #47
DOW -750 NASDAQ -695 S&P -155 Emile Friday #48
For those who thought that the author of this article was full of shit, but weren't sure, this should clinch it. Wiz Imp Friday #50
WAPO OP/ED page is a hard R now obamanut2012 Friday #51
Trump DELAYED most of the tariffs, so there is no 6months in blm Friday #55
Thank you for the having the courage to post this - at the risk of being flamed, I'm not surprised at all by this. Midwestern Democrat Friday #57
You could read Krugman and learn a few things. BootinUp Friday #59
There seems to be an agenda here Keepthesoulalive Friday #58

Bernardo de La Paz

(59,458 posts)
1. Two reasons: 1) Staggered changing tariffs smeared the effect. 2) Massive uncertainty. . . . . . nt
Fri Oct 10, 2025, 01:40 PM
Friday

yardwork

(68,287 posts)
2. This is a very pro-Trump column.
Fri Oct 10, 2025, 01:42 PM
Friday

Later in the column he writes:

Well, to start with, the economic mainstream suffers from Trump derangement syndrome. What we might tactfully describe as the president’s quirky style of government has frazzled the brains of his political opponents to the point that they have lost the ability to think straight.


Goldman Sachs is Trump's "political opponent?" Nonsense.

AI is buoying the U.S. economy. It's too early to say how this will play out but prices are rising and jobs growth is poor.

Mosby

(19,101 posts)
4. Looking thru a partisan lens it might be.
Fri Oct 10, 2025, 01:47 PM
Friday

Trump doesn't really understand why tariffs can be good, or how to apply them responsibly. But the hysteria from the so called "experts" didn't add anything to the conversation, in fact it led to confusion and misunderstandings.

Eta - consumer spending is up 2.5% for the 2nd quarter, so it's not just AI investments.

yardwork

(68,287 posts)
8. I don't see any evidence of hysteria on the part of economists.
Fri Oct 10, 2025, 01:52 PM
Friday

This entire column is based on wishful thinking and a made-up straw man. IMO.

Dawson Leery

(19,489 posts)
5. This article is poorly written propaganda.
Fri Oct 10, 2025, 01:49 PM
Friday

Small businesses cannot absorb the costs of tariffs.

Celerity

(52,463 posts)
15. Matthew Lynn is a financial columnist and author. He writes for the Daily Telegraph and the Spectator in London.
Fri Oct 10, 2025, 02:06 PM
Friday

Response to Celerity (Reply #15)

KPN

(16,949 posts)
3. Way too early to celebrate being wrong. Savings
Fri Oct 10, 2025, 01:47 PM
Friday

are diminishing, debt is growing, winter is coming. This is nothing but cheer leading.

yardwork

(68,287 posts)
12. It's darker than cheerleading.
Fri Oct 10, 2025, 01:57 PM
Friday

It's an attempt to discredit financial experts by accusing them of "Trump derangement syndrome."

It's the same as the MAGA discrediting of healthcare providers, scientists, and teachers. Right out of the fascist playbook.

In my experience most US economists are Republicans. Most of them are not wild-eyed socialists with a hatred of Trump that keeps them from thinking straight.

Response to yardwork (Reply #12)

Mosby

(19,101 posts)
19. O'Donnell.
Fri Oct 10, 2025, 02:17 PM
Friday


You know tariffs are one of the few tools we have available to us to encourage countries like China, India, Malaysia, Indonesia and Russia to reduce greenhouse gas emissions. The above countries are the most polluting countries in the world.

PeaceWave

(2,156 posts)
24. He has a bachelor's degree in economics. I have one too. Neither one of us is an economist.
Fri Oct 10, 2025, 02:37 PM
Friday

Mosby

(19,101 posts)
13. 'Liberation Day' in retrospect: 6 things that surprised investors
Fri Oct 10, 2025, 01:59 PM
Friday

Liberation Day supercharged recession fears. Downturn odds doubled to 40%, and over 80% of U.S. CEOs expected a recession. More than 70% of S&P 500 companies mentioned “tariffs” in earnings calls.

Yet the economy held steady. Tariff-driven inflation wasn’t as severe as feared, and companies were well-positioned to avoid major layoffs. S&P 500 net margins remained solid at 12.3% in the second quarter of 2025 – just below the first quarter’s 12.7% and above the five-year average. Now, the third quarter is on track to be the ninth consecutive quarter of earnings growth, a streak last seen in 2018.

Artificial intelligence (AI) and automation have reshaped the growth story. Tech+ firms now make up nearly half the S&P 500’s market cap. Capital spending contributed nearly half of U.S. GDP growth in the first half of 2025, marking a shift away from consumption-led expansion. Innovation and investment have helped the economy weather the storm.

Liberation Day” rattled corporate America. Guidance turned cautious. Hiring slowed dramatically. The latest Challenger Report shows hiring plans at their lowest since 2009, with just under 205,000 new jobs announced in 2025 – a 58% drop from last year.

However, companies didn’t sit still. Strong balance sheets and healthy margins enabled them to adapt – diversifying supply chains, near-shoring, adjusting pricing and investing in tech to manage costs.

About 60% of U.S. businesses have said they are considering reshoring production, according to a recent KPMG survey of 300 executives.2 Only about one in ten have started, but the White House’s own tracker is already brimming with major manufacturing pledges – from Apple and Nvidia to Ford, General Motors, Bristol Meyers Squib and Biogen.3

Most of those plans are still on paper – and include some previously announced commitments – but the pace of the shift shows how quickly U.S. companies can pivot under pressure.

...

The S&P 500 is up about 15% this year – even after a 19% drawdown and full recovery – outpacing its historical annual average. U.S.-listed exchange-traded funds (ETFs) have pulled in $950 billion so far, including a record $150 billion in September.4, 5, 6 Annual flows are on pace to top $1 trillion for the first time.7

Momentum has gone global. European ETFs have raked in around $220 billion of inflows this year,8 and nearly 80% of the 60 global stock markets we track are up at least 10% the strongest breadth of its kind since 2009.9 Emerging markets are leading: Colombia (66%), Greece (66%), Peru (57%), Korea (57%) and South Africa (47%) are the year’s top five performers (in local currency).

https://www.chase.com/personal/investments/learning-and-insights/article/tmt-october-ten-twenty-five#:~:text=Downturn%20odds%20doubled%20to%2040,the%20economy%20weather%20the%20storm.

KPN

(16,949 posts)
49. The stock market isn't the economy for the average
Fri Oct 10, 2025, 03:34 PM
Friday

American. Tariffs are hitting working class consumers directly via every day expenses. The market may not feel it, but the average consumer sure in hell does.

Skittles

(168,016 posts)
45. I don't think FAFO sentiment is the same as "celebrating"
Fri Oct 10, 2025, 03:21 PM
Friday

we KNOW how fucked we are

PeaceWave

(2,156 posts)
6. With all due respect, this feels like Republican propaganda. By all accounts, tariffs are punishing U.S. farmers.
Fri Oct 10, 2025, 01:51 PM
Friday

Lovie777

(20,654 posts)
7. The rich can ride some of the effects out....................
Fri Oct 10, 2025, 01:51 PM
Friday

personally not me nor family and friends can, it's rough.

Things are expensive, prices are high, insurance is off the charts.

This shithole administration is hiding the numbers and the propaganda strong. In order to cover-up of the economy and Epstein is staggering.

Now the shithole administration is indicting foes on trumped up charges AND they are attacking US cities and citizens.

The propaganda continues.

Bmoboy

(555 posts)
10. So foreign manufacturers are lowering their prices?
Fri Oct 10, 2025, 01:53 PM
Friday

To allow the retail prices to stay the same?

How does that work with coffee or other commodities?

Have all the supply chain participants lowered their prices to keep the goods moving?

I don't have that much faith in the humanitarian intentions of capitalists.

edhopper

(36,709 posts)
11. Bullshit
Fri Oct 10, 2025, 01:55 PM
Friday

New jobs are nearly at zero, and the economy is slowing. Economics did not say he would crash the economy in a month, they said he would crash the economy, and he will, it takes a while, my guess is 2026.

Please don't post Right Wing garbage like this.

OrlandoDem2

(3,127 posts)
21. This is BS because he backed off a lot of tariffs, or lowered them drastically.
Fri Oct 10, 2025, 02:27 PM
Friday

Plus, they were staggered. We are only just beginning to see the impact.

American farmers, however, are already reeling.

And even if inflation hovers at 3-4% (I think it’ll be higher), that’s still well above the 2% goal that economists like to see.

Furthermore, if importers eat most of the costs, that’s less profits for advertising, insurance coverage, R&D, expansion of any sort, raises, and so much more. Therefore money is taken out of the economy is numerous ways through these godforsaken tariffs!

BootinUp

(50,525 posts)
23. I am pretty sure this story is slanted in more than one way
Fri Oct 10, 2025, 02:34 PM
Friday

For example, any predictions they cite were undoubtedly tied to the most extreme tariffs that were not kept in place. And two, the damage is far from over and the dust has not settled. And three, see Krugman today for more and better written summaries.

wiggs

(8,492 posts)
25. This is an opinion piece written by a conservative writer who backed brexit and who gives TSF lots
Fri Oct 10, 2025, 02:37 PM
Friday

of credit for Biden's cease fire plan.

Irish_Dem

(76,111 posts)
27. The US economy was so strong it withstood a huge major grifting operation by Trump.
Fri Oct 10, 2025, 02:47 PM
Friday

He was able to funnel huge sums of money to his pocket and not crash the economy.

Ocelot II

(127,681 posts)
28. This is the guy who predicted in a 2007 Bloomberg article that the iPhone would be a flop.
Fri Oct 10, 2025, 02:49 PM
Friday

"Apple will sell a few to its fans, but the iPhone won't make a long-term mark on the industry."
https://forums.anandtech.com/threads/saw-this-on-reddit-tonight-a-2007-iphone-will-fail-column.2240010/

So there's that.

Celerity

(52,463 posts)
52. the article
Fri Oct 10, 2025, 03:40 PM
Friday

https://archive.ph/J2XY

Jan. 15 (Bloomberg) -- Few products have been launched with such a blizzard of publicity as Apple Inc.'s iPhone.
To its many fans, Apple is more of a religious cult than a company. An iToaster that downloads music while toasting bread would probably get the same kind of worldwide attention. Don't let that fool you into thinking that it matters. The big competitors in the mobile-phone industry such as Nokia Oyj and Motorola Inc. won't be whispering nervously into their clamshells over a new threat to their business. The iPhone is nothing more than a luxury bauble that will appeal to a few gadget freaks. In terms of its impact on the industry, the iPhone is less relevant.

If column inches and airtime guaranteed commercial success, Apple would already have a global hit on its hands. For the past week, it has been impossible to open a newspaper or look at a Web site without reading something about the shiny new phone. Certainly, it looks like a nice piece of equipment. The iPhone combines Apple's iPod music and video player with a mobile phone as well as having wireless Internet access for e-mail. Instead of lugging around a phone for making calls, an MP3 player for listening to music, and a Blackberry for checking your e- mail, you can do all three on one device. Even better, you only need one charger. It will be released in the U.S. in June, with a rollout to the rest of the world later, and will cost $499 to $599, depending on how much storage space you want. How many might they sell? Ten million in 2008, according to Apple Chief Executive Officer Steve Jobs.

Three Reasons

Not everyone is sold on the idea. ``The iPhone will not substantially alter the fundamental structure and challenges of the mobile industry,'' Charles Golvin, an analyst at Forrester Research Inc., said in a report this month. There are three reasons that Apple is unlikely to make much of an impact on this market -- and why it is too early to start dumping your Nokia shares.

First, Apple is late to this party. The company didn't invent the personal computer or MP3 player, but it was among the pioneers of both products. Yet there is no shortage of phones out there. There are already big companies that dominate the space, all of whom will defend their turf. That means Apple will have to fight hard for every sale. Next, the mobile-phone industry depends on cooperation with the big networks. Phones -- the high-end ones in particular --are usually sold with a network contract. The provider subsidizes the handset in the U.K. and hopes to recoup its money with ridiculously expensive charges for calls and data. Yet Apple has never been good at working with other companies. If it knew how to do that, it would be Microsoft Corp.

snip

It won't come from the iPhone. Apple will sell a few to its fans, but the iPhone won't make a long-term mark on the industry.

(Matthew Lynn is a Bloomberg News columnist. The opinions expressed are his own.)



bucolic_frolic

(52,737 posts)
29. Supply chains and pricing has not fully adjusted yet.
Fri Oct 10, 2025, 02:50 PM
Friday

There are inventories to work off, just-in-time scheduling shipments and deliveries, leftover demand and supply from the pandemic. We're processing two global economic events in 4-1/2 years.

Wapo is full of it here. Companies "absorbed" the cost of tariffs? If so there should be a major hit to corporate profits already and in the months ahead. See any evidence? AI and layoffs are mitigating all of the adverse effects? Everyone is better off?

It's all bunk at this point.

Response to Mosby (Original post)

yardwork

(68,287 posts)
34. I didn't alert but this column really is nothing but right wing talking points.
Fri Oct 10, 2025, 03:03 PM
Friday

The fact that it was published today in WaPo shows how bad that source has become.

lostincalifornia

(4,690 posts)
31. They haven't been fully implemented, and temporarily companies have been
Fri Oct 10, 2025, 03:02 PM
Friday

Last edited Fri Oct 10, 2025, 03:50 PM - Edit history (1)

bearing the cost, but they are now starting to slip to the consumer.

This economy right now is being supported by 40% of the most affluent consumers, while 60% are having a difficult time of making ends meet.

You haven’t seen anything yet because everything is in a state of flux and changing daily.

This is the elephant in the room that many have been trying to avoid.

This morning it was all brought into focus when trump used his social posts to start to push again higher tariffs on China, and that was just on his threats.

Speculative excesses helped give us the Great Depression, and tariffs and trade wars made it last much longer than it needed to be.

Consumers will eventually be paying for these tariffs, and yes, Lawrence is right, tariff's are a tax that are paid for by the American public.

He can play the game that will give those over 65 up to 12000 tax deduction, and no tax on tips to offset those increases due to the tariffs, and a promise to bail out the farmers, but no one should be fooled into this con game. The tariffs are not going to pay off the deficit, nor are they going to curb the inflation that is already impacting consumers. Much of those tariffs will pay for the tax breaks for the wealthiest Americans, but what happens to those who are losing their jobs?

Cutting programs that help the most vulnerable in our society is going to have consequences, and we will all pay for it one way or another.




Krazy_Kat

(62 posts)
33. Krugman had a post about this today
Fri Oct 10, 2025, 03:03 PM
Friday

He says the de facto tariff rate is around 10% right now instead of 17%, and companies are absorbing the higher costs because they are reluctant to raise prices, but that will change sooner rather than later. More here:

https://open.substack.com/pub/paulkrugman/p/leprechauns-effective-tariffs-and?r=bllh&utm_campaign=post&utm_medium=web&showWelcomeOnShare=false

PeaceWave

(2,156 posts)
37. It's a tired canard to suggest that "companies are absorbing costs."
Fri Oct 10, 2025, 03:17 PM
Friday

I did a lot of comparison pricing the last few days during Amazon Prime Day. The prices on electronics were routinely between 20% and 30% higher than last year. Consumers know what we are seeing online and at the grocery store. Suggesting that we should not believe our lying eyes is - again - nothing short of propaganda.

Mosby

(19,101 posts)
38. He makes some good points.
Fri Oct 10, 2025, 03:17 PM
Friday

Some of the import fraud is pricing related, companies are intentionally mistating the wholesale price thus paying less tariffs.

DallasNE

(7,884 posts)
56. Let's See What Shareholders Say
Fri Oct 10, 2025, 06:39 PM
Friday

About net earnings when 3rd quarter earnings are posted and compared to same period last year. How much are they parking in the Cayman Islands?

BannonsLiver

(19,732 posts)
35. This column is what is sometimes referred to as an "absolute pant load".
Fri Oct 10, 2025, 03:09 PM
Friday

Even accepting the author's premise, the litany of things he said were talked about but did not happen that would be bad for the economy, are solely dependent on the continued largesse of those companies taking smaller profits. Who in their right mind would ever bet on that continuing in perpetuity?

DallasNE

(7,884 posts)
42. Stagflation
Fri Oct 10, 2025, 03:19 PM
Friday

I was early to forecast stagflation and I am seeing stagflation. Some may quibble over the amount, but it has arrived. Grocery prices are soaring, with many prices up 20% since Trump took office. The labor picture, if reported, would show contraction. That is stagnation, friends.

Wiz Imp

(7,667 posts)
43. Why are we allowing right wing bullshit like this to be posted here? I thought it was against the rules.
Fri Oct 10, 2025, 03:19 PM
Friday

DFW

(59,123 posts)
47. Wrong about WHICH tariffs?
Fri Oct 10, 2025, 03:33 PM
Friday

The drastic ones that were rescinded three days after their much-headlined announcements, or the ones that are already bankrupting farmers nationwide?

Wiz Imp

(7,667 posts)
50. For those who thought that the author of this article was full of shit, but weren't sure, this should clinch it.
Fri Oct 10, 2025, 03:35 PM
Friday

This article was published today in the Telegraph (UK Paper):
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2025/10/10/nobel-peace-prize-irrelevant-trump-diplomatic-coup/

The Nobel Prize doesn’t matter: Trump has pulled off the diplomatic coup of the century
Maria Corina Machado is a brave and resourceful woman, but it’s clear who the real winner of this year’s award should be


She is, by all accounts, a brave and resourceful woman. Maria Corina Machado has led the fight for freedom and democracy in Venezuela with courage and dignity. Perhaps she will eventually help bring about real change in a country that has suffered from a succession of terrible rulers.

And yet surely almost anyone apart from the Nobel Peace Prize committee in Oslo can see who the real winner of this year’s award should be: President Trump. Sure, we will have to see if it holds, but the ceasefire in Gaza is the diplomatic coup of the century.

The sceptics said it could never be done. The two sides were too far apart. Too much blood had already been spilled. And that the fanatics on both sides would never settle for anything less than total victory and the complete annihilation of the other side.

And yet despite all that President Trump will, so long as everything goes to plan, be in Egypt this weekend to attend a signing ceremony. The hostages will be released. And the fighting will stop – at least for now.


This is one of the biggest loads of shit I have ever read.
57. Thank you for the having the courage to post this - at the risk of being flamed, I'm not surprised at all by this.
Fri Oct 10, 2025, 08:07 PM
Friday

I have never bought into the neoliberal consensus on unfettered free trade - I well remember this same exact establishment consensus cheerleading NAFTA and mocking Ross Perot, the AFL-CIO, and anyone else who opposed it as parochial morons - so this was one of the few issues I was broadly in agreement with Trump on.

BootinUp

(50,525 posts)
59. You could read Krugman and learn a few things.
Fri Oct 10, 2025, 10:35 PM
Friday

Most of his excellent work on substack is free.

There is no mystery about the advantages of free trade. It simply means that goods are eventually produced by the most efficient means. It doesn't mean that governments have fair taxation or wisely invest in their country or do anything else wisely or fairly.

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