Science
Related: About this forumOn Bashing Servers: ShengBTE, A Boltzmann Transport Equation Solver.
The paper to which I'll refer in this post is this one: Wu Li, Jesús Carrete, Nebil A. Katcho, Natalio Mingo, ShengBTE: A solver of the Boltzmann transport equation for phonons, Computer Physics Communications, Volume 185, Issue 6, 2014, Pages 1747-1758,
The latest public Bête noire is a sudden concern about the cost (and reliability) of electricity being driven by the power demands of servers usually in our end of the political spectrum with a sense of grave negatives, a supposition of that the whole affair is driven by dark rapacious billionaires.
I note, because of the rather dubious proposition that electric cars are "green" - they're more often not so than are so - few people wonder about replacing the world's gasoline demand with demand for electricity to power cars and the cost (and reliability) of electricity for this use.
It's, um, more than a little schizoid to compare these two states of affairs.
There are zero technologies than cannot be utilized for both good and bad purposes; the fault lies not with the technology itself, but with the ethical choice of how the technology is utilized. DU runs on servers, and so does Google Scholar, to which I appeal whenever a scientific (and sometimes even other academic) question pops into my mind.
As my survival is more and more precarious as I approach the human limits of aging, I'm trying to squeeze sometime into writing down some of the most meaningful energy ideas that have occurred to me - for better or worse - to leave to my son. Included in these is a general approach to utilizing depleted and "once through" uranium to generate plutonium, in a "breed and burn" system, something that will involve the isolation and use of thorium currently dumped along with lanthanide mine tailings.
I have long been familiar with the preparation and properties of uranium nitride, but as I was thinking about what to write, I realized that my files contain very little about thorium nitride.
The advantage of nitride fuels is their high thermal conductivity and high melting points which makes them ideal nuclear fuels, and a sort of neutral issue is that nitrides generate radioactive 14C and tritium, both of which produce angst among antinukes, but both of which are potentially very useful given their low neutron capture cross sections.
Working to correct this deficiency in my understanding of thorium nitride, I downloaded, among a multitude of others, this paper: Barbara Szpunar, Jayangani I. Ranasinghe, Linu Malakkal, Jerzy A. Szpunar, First principles investigation of thermal properties of thorium mononitride, Journal of Alloys and Compounds, Volume 879, 2021, 160467.
Excerpts from this thorium nitride paper:
In our previous papers [4], [5] we have investigated UN, which has the same cubic structure (Fmm symmetry) as ThN, discussed here. In contrast however, ThN is non-magnetic, but also metallic; therefore, its thermal conductivity does not deteriorate like the lattice-governed thermal conductivity in insulators (e.g. urania [6]). This is due to the increasing presence of electronic carriers with mobility as temperature rises. Since both electronic conductivity and electronic contribution to thermal conductivity are related to electron mobility, they can be derived from each other via the Wiedemann-Franz proportionality law (WFL), which is very useful in determining the contribution from phonons and electrons to the measured thermal conductivity...
A little further on they write:
I added the bold. Reference 10 is the paper referenced at the beginning of this post.
From that paper, reference 10, we see the following written about approaching an ab initio (first principles) approach to modeling the thermal conductivity of materials:
...The phonon-contributed part of the total thermal conductivity is the lattice thermal conductivity. Phonon properties including frequencies, velocities and scattering rates are largely determined by interatomic force constants (IFCs). One important approach to study phonon transport in solids is the Boltzmann transport equation (BTE) [5]. However, solving this equation is far from trivial. Although it was originally formulated by Peierls in 1929, even as late as in 1960 looking for a direct solution to the BTE was regarded as a hopeless endeavor [5]. Instead, many solutions to the BTE conventionally rely on the relaxation time approximation (RTA) along with the Debye approximation, neglecting the true phonon dispersions, and several parameters are introduced to treat different scattering mechanisms. To improve on this, Callaway proposed a model [6] that treats the quasimomentum-conserving normal processes and the non-quasimomentum-conserving Umklapp processes on a different footing. Very recently, an improvement upon Callaways model has been proposed by Allen [7]. All these models involve parameters that are fitted to experimental data, and thus lack predictive power. In 1995 a practically feasible, iterative numerical method was proposed [8], [9], [10] to solve the BTE accurately. Early attempts started with a parameterized semiempirical interatomic potential, but such an approach suffers from problems of low accuracy and lack of transferability, since an appropriate potential for each compound must be developed...
A little further on:
(IFC = Interatomic Force Constants)
I have added the bold in all cases.
There is a considerable technical discussion in the full paper and a test run on indium arsenide, a conductive crystal. (Recently boron nitride crystals have been developed that have higher thermal conductivity than diamond, displacing it as the all time highest thermally conductive material.)
The point is that this program is one that can be utilized to save the world, and the use of electricity to run computers in this case is a positive use, as opposed to uses like spreading the insanity on "Truth Social" from the all caps orange pedophile in the White House, obviously a negative use.
We can have clean electricity, generated using nuclear energy, for which thorium nitride has interesting and possibly extremely valuable properties.
The ShengBTE program represents a tiny fraction of what computational power can do for us in a positive sense, (DU is another) and there are thousands more cases, and whining about the demands of electricity for servers can thus be as counterproductive as productive.
Have a nice weekend.
lapfog_1
(31,424 posts)that the current "servers and AI are going to suck all of the energy produced by the grid in XXX months or years" hysteria... is BS.
That will never happen. Period.
What happens here is that various companies or organizations look at what they want to solve ( either math equations or AI "relationship evaluations" and the LLMs that go with that )... and then someone says "that will take X number of thousand GB200 racks ( picking on Nvidia here ) or NVL72 racks,, and those racks take Y amount of electricity to run ( GPUs, CPUs, memory, storage, and cooling for all of it ) and extrapolate into the future to meet the "demand" postulated.
Three things happen... Number 1. The next generation of CPU, GPU, memory, storage, etc takes much less energy to produce the same result, 2) The work of some very clever people, smarter than me, figures out how to achieve the same result but with less calculations ( quantum computing, or just better equations ), and/or 3) The demand never materializes... or is delayed long enough to be solved by number 1 and number 2.
I happen to be very good at Number 1. And I can promise the next generation AI servers ( and math supercomputers ) will use a lot less power to do the same job as current state of the art machines do. I assume #2 and #3 will also happen given the amount of money involved.
BTW, I would take a reasonable guess that all of DU ( web server, archives, etc ) could easily be run on about 100 watts of electricity today... using newer SBCs and SSD storage. Not including all of the power that drives the routers, switches, wifi towers, etc to deliver DU to your phone or laptop.
Pretty sure I could host DU using no more than a few RUs of rack space and SBCs.
Someone would have to give me traffic stats, amount of data in the active and archive storage, etc. But if we are talking under 1 PB of storage and under a GB/sec of active requests... yeah, 100 watts will do the trick. Maybe 200 ( just in case someone wants to make a bet ).
NNadir
(36,938 posts)It goes well beyond servers to the dubious "electrify everything" movement we see, which is questionably identified as "green," since electricity is generally a thermodynamically degraded form of energy, still overwhelmingly produced by combustion as a primary energy source.
While I generally agree, again, the statement "...Not including all of the power that drives the routers, switches, wifi towers, etc to deliver DU to your phone or laptop..." may be a bit of a fudge not entirely justified in an effort to say "not a problem."
In addition, I would say that "all new stuff" is also somewhat dubious, since not everyone replaces everything simply because "The next generation of CPU, GPU, memory, storage, etc takes much less energy to produce the same."
Over the long period during which the environment collapse has been and is accelerating - and I assert it is definitely doing so - I've heard lots of "all new stuff" solutions that have done zero to arrest the problem.
On average, I replace my computer every 4 to 5 years or so. "All new stuff" also raises the question of how to deal with "all old stuff."
eppur_se_muova
(40,537 posts)There's a well-known phenomenon in civil engineering that if you add more roads/lanes to handle a growing traffic load, the effect of the new roads will be to encourage more new traffic -- it's like the Red Queen's race, trying to keep up. With comms technology, it's orders of magnitude faster to reach the next "necessary" expansion.
Internet usage used to be limited, slow, and expensive, used only where essential. As the network and bandwidth expanded and dropped in price, people began to take advantage to do all sorts of things that were never considered desirable, much less essential, previously. Social media is a big part of that. Sharing pop music ? Pets on camera 7/24 ? Tons of AI-generated slop photos, videos, music ? AI is particularly bad because the "users" dumping more data on the Web are not restricted by human metabolism, but function at rates as high (or higher) as the Internet can sustain, taking a larger and larger share of that ever-growing pie and leaving humans unable to find the useful stuff (at least without doing a massive search for the most trivial things, using more CPU cycles, more netbaud, etc.). At this point, I think that if humans died off, the Internet would reach, and hold, saturation for quite some time before software and hardware failures started taking the worst exploiters offline. And failure of comms might actually increase saturation before it got dropped.
ultralite001
(2,276 posts)So much potential in the right hands
The Krasnov administrations quest to kill any science that does not line their pockets w/ gold will kill funding, particularly for anything clean
energy, water, air
which boggles the mind when supercomputers require so much of each
Thank you for preserving + providing this information. The next generation may think theyve found a key to the Philosophers Stone
a concept lost by the current administration
John ONeill
(82 posts)The Russians have been working on UN fuel for many years. In view of its advantages, is it much more difficult to make than UO?
New startup Aalo Atomic had been planning on using Uranium Zirconium Hydride fuel (sodium coolant), as in TRIGA reactors, but just switched to uranium oxide, as easier to get. Is it just established supply chains channeling the options? (Amusingly, Aalo's chief scientist told an audience 'My name will mean nothing to anyone born after 1990.' He's Yasir Arafat, Rohingya refugee to nuclear engineer.)
NNadir
(36,938 posts)...directly from UF6 in an additive manufacture setting.
There are certain materials science restrictions on the idea that I need to discuss with my son, which I hope to do when he comes for Thanksgiving.
If it were to prove workable, it would be an excellent approach to detoxifying the depleted UF6 at Fernald to build small printable breed and burn cores consisting of the mononitride.
Besides the issue of higher thermal conductivity and melting points, uranium nitride to my mind offers spectacular properties for reprocessing.
eppur_se_muova
(40,537 posts)NNadir
(36,938 posts)Ange Benise Niyikiza, Zeyu Xiang, Fanghao Zhang, Fengjiao Pan, Chunhua Li, Matthew Delmont, David Broido, Ying Peng, Bolin Liao, Zhifeng Ren, Thermal conductivity of boron arsenide above 2100 W per meter per Kelvin at room temperature, Materials Today, Volume 90, 2025, Pages 11-14.
I haven't had the opportunity to pick up the full paper yet, but will.