To anyone who thinks it's cute or even acceptable to mock or disparage people having trouble with DU4 - it isn't.

[highplainsdem]

If you think you're somehow helping or supporting the admins by mocking or disparaging people having trouble with DU4 - you're not.

Whether or not you think it's easy to use DU4 is simply irrelevant to whether others are running into problems with it.

The last thing the admins need is for anyone to give up on DU if they encounter problems using DU4.

And probably the one thing most likely to make them just give up and leave, rather than trying to get help here, is seeing DUers laughing at people, or running them down, for any difficulties they're encountering.

[Shellback Squid]

1. I have had issues too but no one has mocked me, could you provide examples of this juvenile behavior?

Because that's not at all like most DUers.

[highplainsdem]

2. I'm not going to point out specific examples. There have been plenty here and in GD and in the Lounge.

And it's been going on for weeks now.

It isn't all DUers, thank God. But negative comments meant to shame or silence people having trouble with DU4 have popped up all too often.

And they don't belong in what's supposed to be a liberal, CARING forum.

[brush]

8. Yeah, there's a lot of snarky responses, as if the responder is so smart...

and the one asking the question is a moron. DU4 has hidden many functions in tabs that require seaching to find out where they lead to, were as before they straight forward and visible on the homepage or one-click tabs atop it or down the sides.

[Shellback Squid]

9. That's why I would like some examples, to report these little people

and hopefully get them tombstoned for the negative behavior as we do not need this crap

[highplainsdem]

13. The people who've been doing this include some DUers who've been here quite a while and posted a

lot of messages. Usually very helpful ones.

I do NOT want them targeted by people planning to hide their messages in the hope they might get FFR'd (flagged for review, which effectively is a ban unless the admins relent).

I especially don't want any targeting since I don't have time to comb through everything posted here in the last month to find ALL such examples, and no one should waste time doing that, either.

I want the behavior to stop. (And I'd like FFRs to go back to being only temporary, until the oldest hidden post is more than 90 days old. I don't believe there should be permanent bans unless someone is determinedly trolling and doing little or nothing else, and that can often be spotted well before 5 posts are hidden.)

Anyway, it's better to post an OP about the problem behavior than to try to go after it retroactively and hide old posts.

I have brought the problem up before, but never as the subject of an OP. I hope pointing out the harm those snarky, contemptuous remarks are causing will get the attention of the people who've been doing this. I don't want them FFR'd. Just want them to be more understanding and respectful of other DUers.

[WhiteTara]

3. everyone is an asshole

in their own way and their chosen time.

[highplainsdem]

5. I don't think that's true, especially here. But too many DUers have been suggesting that

people having problems with DU4 are just too dumb, or too old, or too unwilling to adapt. That they aren't really having problems with DU4 - that THEY'RE the problem.

And that intolerant attitude - which boils down to "I like DU4, so if you're having problems with it, just shut up" - is one I didn't expect to see here.

[WhiteTara]

6. It is absolutely true, unless of course,

you have become a Boddhisatva and even they get pissed off. But the rest of us, yes, we are all assholes in the time and place.

[LiberalArkie]

15. "problems with DU4 are just too dumb, or too old, or too unwilling to adapt"... Uhh Yea. But I finally figured it out.

[ShazzieB]

18. I don't think so.

And even if that were true, that's no excuse for bring deliberately snarky to fellow members, much less mocking the.

[Basic LA]

4. One question, why 2 font sizes?

In the OP, both title & text are in nice legible size. Then in the 1st response, there's both legible & microscopic sizes. Why is that. (And I have seen some snark toward those having trouble adjusting.)
I knew it, after posting this I noticed all print was back to legible size.

[littlemissmartypants]

22. You're more likely to have your questions addressed if you

1) Check this group that we're in, DU Community Help, found here
https://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=forum&id=1256
And look for any threads that may already address your questions and if not

2) Start a new OP with your questions here or even

3) Send your questions directly to admin via email here:
The DU Administrators
EarlG
David Allsopp
Co-founder, Forum Administrator
[e-mail]
Elad
Lead Programmer, Forum Administrator
[e-mail]

Link to the contact page
https://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=contact

Good luck!
❤️pants

[Oopsie Daisy]

24. I dislike the "dynamic" font sizes that grow/shrink depending on the width of the browser.

I dislike the "dynamic" font sizes that grow/shrink depending on the width of the browser. Basically, I'd need to keep my browser at FULL SCREEN WITH in order to get the optimum font size. But if I have a narrow browser width (because I actually do OTHER things on my computer in addition to browsing DU) then the font shrinks and it's too small to see clearly.

It's a challenge, and I'd rather spend my time elsewhere if it's going to stay like this. (And the crowd cheers!!)

[ornotna]

27. Not seeing that problem on my browser (Firefox)

The text doesn't change when I change the size of my browser window.

[Oopsie Daisy]

31. The DU home page is where I've observed it happening.

[ornotna]

32. Upon further examination

I do see the font changes on the homepage.

[anciano]

7. Agreed.....

and FWIW I don't think it's acceptable to mock or disparage others at all.

[TwilightZone]

10. Snark, in general, seems to have ramped up significantly, of late.

Personal attacks seem to be on the rise, and I've seen some that I'm a bit surprised weren't disposed of. The community seems a bit, shall we say, lenient at the moment. I suppose world events and the mess in Congress aren't helping.

As for help with DU4, I try to assist whenever I see someone with a concern, though I'm not on as much as I once was.

I think some general tips or an FAQ of some sort would also help, like pointing people to the Search function to find old forums, etc. There used to be a page like that, but that was a very long time ago, ~2006.

[NBachers]

11. Like: If I try to make a reply on my phone, and I have to backtrack to correct, the reply bounces down out of sight

and I can't see it to make my correction. I have to memorize how many spaces to backtrack to get to the error I'm trying to correct.

It gets to the point of, I just don't bother to make replies on my phone. I've significantly reduced the time I spend on DU since 4 was launched. Just not as user friendly for me. I have plenty of other things to do.

[highplainsdem]

16. I've cut back here, mainly because DU4 has made the tablet that I found worked great for DU3 nearly

unusable on this site now. I have been spending more time at my desk, using one of my laptops, but that's causing back problems. With DU3 and my tablet set for Standard rather than Mobile view, I could hold the tablet vertically, see 30+ threads at a time on a board page (and who posted them, and how many recs and replies), and scroll down each page very quickly. So now I don't see as much of DU every day as I used to, and I miss that.

But I do know a lot of the changes were to make the site more phone-friendly, and those changes have helped some people using their phones here, quite a bit.

[Picaro]

12. Spot on

I don’t like a number of things about DU4, but have stayed out of it. I’m just a watcher and lurker for the most part.

But some of the changes are inexplicably bad.

The tabular format of Latest Breaking News is horrible. It looks like something from an old style bulletin board. I can use it, but because I don’t like it I don’t go there.

What I can’t tell is why DU4? This conversion must have been a lot of work. What I don’t understand is what the problem was that needed to be solved.

It is very clear that there are a lot of users that really don’t like DU4. The demographics of DU mean that a lot of people are not fans of massive change.

Over time the users will adjust.

But mocking those that express unhappiness is not the way to go.

IMHO.

[GAJMac]

14. I've had some problems

I've had some problems, but not with DU4, per se. I'm new(ish) and couldn't figure out some of the features and options.

I posted a request for help in The DU Lounge, and everyone who replied was VERY helpful and supportive. Listing places to find the information I need, welcoming me to the membership, and just generally making me glad I finally took the plunge and joined.

A special shout-out to TwilightZone for sending me a number of helpful links!

[highplainsdem]

21. Welcome to DU! And DUers usually are very helpful and welcoming.

The snarkiness I've seen from some people who didn't want to hear that anyone was having trouble with DU4 has really surprised me.

[Mr.Bill]

17. I'm 70 years old and compared to many here,

I'm a luddite. I am having a wonderful time with DU4. I honestly feel that I have found and am using features here that I would have never found using DU3.

[highplainsdem]

20. I'm glad it's working better for you than DU3 was. Are you using your phone to reach the site? I'm

asking because a lot of the DU4 design was to help those using phones here, and it's great that they now have some added features like Google Search.

[Mr.Bill]

23. I'm strictly using a laptop.

All I use a phone for is phone calls and maybe listening to music on YouTube. I didn't even have a smart phone until about a year ago.

[highplainsdem]

26. And you don't miss the old left sidebar for navigation, to get almost anywhere on DU with just one click?

What are the new features you've discovered that you like?

[Mr.Bill]

28. Using the navigation as it is now

has led me somehow to explore new (to me) places. And once I put it on my subscribed list, I can go there with one click. One feature I began using for some reason is bookmarking.

[highplainsdem]

35. So, basically, you like things that were already on DU3 (various small forums/groups you hadn't noticed before, and

the bookmark feature) that you simply hadn't paid any attention to until after the switch, when the reorganization of the smaller forums in different categories made it necessary to read down those full lists. And maybe someone mentioned bookmarking in one of the many threads about adapting to DU4, and you started using it then.

I can understand how rearranging stuff (even furniture) can make you notice and appreciate things more.

And yes, subscribing to a forum can make it accessible via one click from any page on DU4.

Personally, I preferred the DU3 left sidebar with its dropdown menus providing a list of all the forums.

For me, the main improvement with DU4 is the ability to preview mail, and I don't really need that. It is a plus for me only because it lets me check links I'm sending before I hit send, which I couldn't do with DU3, though there I always checked them right after sending the mail.

Almost all the other changes with DU4 have made DU work worse for me. From radically worse, as with the loss of the ability to use my tablet, held vertically, set on DU3's Standard rather than Mobile mode - so I could see 30+ threads on the screen at one time and skim down them rapidly, and catch up with DU very quickly (I've compared this before to going from skimming a newspaper page while seeing the full page, to trying to skim it using a magnifying glass surrounded by an enormous opaque shield so I can see only a small portion of the page at one time). To much more time-consuming and frustrating, as when I'm trying to find where a smaller forum has been moved to and what new category it's in, in a patchwork arrangement so I have to look at each category separately and then read down a list where the forums might be in any order depending on latest post. To only slightly more time-consuming but still annoying, when it takes multiple clicks to do what used to take one. It all adds up to much more time and effort to read DU and post here. It's frustrating, especially since I don't see why there was a need for those changes.

I know some people here are very happy with being able to rec replies. I usually don't because I don't notice any recs with replies unless I specifically look for them with each reply, and I honestly think it does more to highlight how good a reply is if there are actual positive responses to it, rather than recs that can be easily overlooked. Even a "+1" response to a reply draws attention more than a rec, IMO.

I haven't used My Notes and have no idea what I'd use it for.

I don't look at the Feed, have no interest in it. My Posts lets me see replies to posts (though I wish it were visible via the old tab on every board page and not available only by clicking My Stuff first). I don't care about Milestones, don't keep track of # of replies, and find a mix of notifications about subscriptions, milestones and mail kind of a mess to look at.

But I just ignore those, so they don't take up more of my time, though My Notes takes up a lot of space on the page that I wish could be restored (I have noticed that space is now used for ads people see if they aren't logged in and Star members).

I'm staying anyway, despite all the problems I run into constantly with DU4. But for me - to go back to my rearranging-furniture analogy - it's been the equivalent of trying to get around in my own home if lots was rearranged and things you can trip over were nailed to the floor and had to be avoided every couple of steps. Getting around is still doable, but it's a long way from nearly effortless, and that really distracts from focusing on the CONTENT of DU, for me.

Again, this is just MY experience. MY opinion. And it doesn't matter any more than anyone else's. But this is what the DU4 experience is like for me, at least so far.

[ananda]

19. OK, I seriously dislike the way the home page is set up.

So what?

It's really up to the owner.

That's how it goes sometimes.

[highplainsdem]

25. Yes. DU, as a website, has one owner.

But DU as a community with more than two decades of history has no owner.

DU as a community exists because people who registered and posted here have been happy with how the website was run and how well the forums worked.

Which is why listening to them is important.

Re the home page - you dislike the way it is now after the update a few days ago (which restored some of what was there with DU3)? Or you disliked the first version of the home page with DU4?

[Deuxcents]

29. You are correct. Just last night a poster said "I'm done"

I clicked on thinking maybe a health issue but it was the mocking and snarky comments because he/she was having difficulty with the new format. I wish I would have replied so I could retrieve the post for the doubters here. This wasn’t the first time I’ve seen exasperated posters with the rudeness of others want to leave.

[highplainsdem]

33. That's really unfortunate. It is just a small fraction of DUers posting the snarky messages, but it

can make this site seem unwelcming and intolerant to those running into problems with DU4 and then getting sniped at for posting about it.

[Demnation]

30. Don't care if DU is a scrolling screen of text. Been here since before 9/11, will be with DU till I die!

Site management isn't my job, but staying informed is. For what it's worth, I like the new format and truly appreciate the ongoing updates, which reflects well on a responsive and professional IT team that cares about their product. But the bottom line is that there is no better site where Democrats, Liberals, Progressives, or anyone else can come for factual, timely information and also find a sense of community with generally rational and kind people of all shapes, sizes, colors, ages, genders or gender identities, or any other ridiculous label the rest of the world wants to foist upon us.

In case you haven't noticed, the people of this country are slowly waking up and are growing sick and tired of the right wing creeps and their endless stupid culture wars, their extremism, their made-up evangelical idiocy, their lies, greed and corruption, and their incomprehensible hypocrisy and projection. And we are at this point in our lives, our history in the US and abroad, stuck with a media that has lost its collective integrity, its very soul, in service of profits and the ideological fantasies of their CEOs and stockholders.

I don't care if DU changes their format to an old DOS black screen with scrolling green text and a single font. Ain't going nowhere. Glad to be here. Proud to be a Liberal Democrat - a Kennedy Democrat of the JFK variety if that matters (not the Google quasi neo-liberal version, but the "no Pax-Americana" JFK where we all breath the same air).

I love you all.

[highplainsdem]

34. I'm not going anywhere, either. I love this site. But I do want DU4 to work at least as well, or nearly as well,

as DU3 for everyone here. If it seems much more difficult to people here, they're likely to read less and post less. And if they're met with snarky comments if they mention it being harder to use DU now, that does make it more likely they will actually leave, or at least spend a lot less time here and maybe take long breaks from DU. I don't want that.

I first got online in the mid-1980s, and I ran into most of the old types of boards over the years. I have no problem adapting to changes.

But changes should ideally make reading and posting on a board easier, not harder. The admins were right to listen to people using their phones more and finding the old DU more difficult then. But accommodating them should be done without making DU more difficult and time-consuming for others.

And people who are very happy with DU4 - and think everyone should be - need to remember that theirs aren't the only opinions that matter and other DUers shouldn't be sniped at until they fall in line. Those are the people this OP is about.

[mahina]

36. Certainly true

We should help each other